News: They're not bad kickers
By Ginger Prince
October 10 2010
What makes a “good” goalkicker? We could probably all offer a basic opinion of technique, practice, a fully-functioning top two inches and good coaching.
They're not bad kickers
If a player has those elements, we expect success - instantly. After
all, as some posters have mentioned previously on other threads
something along the lines of “they’re professionals and get paid to
practice and play, so should get the kicks over”. That’s an easy
statement to make but also completely unfair on the unfortunate
misser-of-the-kick.
If just practice with Grayse were the answer, then all would be well,
but consider this; any change in technique – no matter how minor – will
result in mixed results. Now if you’ll indulge me just a little, I’d
like to use my background in sport science and experience of
biomechanical movement analysis in the U.S. as to explain WHY…
For years it was said practice makes perfect, until it was pointed out
that practice makes permanent. Every movement, repeated over and over
again, creates “muscle memory” within the body and brain; so when you do
the same thing (kick at goal), that particular routine becomes more
autonomous – you engrain the action you’re performing. It also creates
the “rhythm” that some commentators and coaches say a kicker needs.
So for now, try to imagine just how many kicks have gone over in just
one practice session from messrs Myler, Geraghty, Reihana and Ford. If
they practiced by themselves for one hour with a 30 second placement,
approach and kick routine that would be 120 kicks. That’s a lot of
engraining going on…
To make a change in what any athlete does, will make the skill being
performed feel awkward / weird (that’s because you’re not used to doing
things THAT way). The more the new skill is practiced, the more it’s
engrained (the muscle memory becomes stronger). Try twirling a pen
between your fingers – then put the pen in your non-dominant hand and
try it. Compare the feeling of ease and awkwardness at performing the
same task. The motor programme created by the more dextrous hand is
completely different to that of the other – the same principle applies
to the changing of an element in the kick routine. Whether it’s the
angle of approach, the placement of the non-kicking foot, angle of the
ankle of the kicking foot, contact point of foot on ball, length of
follow-through – it will create the need for more massed practice under
those new conditions and a lot of time is needed to create that muscle
memory, purely because your body is fighting what it’s been programmed
to do for (possibly) years. The "undoing or re-wiring" process takes
ages.
If it was decided that a technique needed modifying (as Mylers’ has
recently) or changing completely, then the deconstruction and rebuilding
process would be long term, but in the meantime that kicker might still
be asked to perform the duties on matchday –and that’s what I think is
happening here. *
I’ll refer you now to Tiger Woods – the day after he won his first
masters competition, he said he needed to rebuild his swing in order to
improve his golf. He didn’t win another tournament for 19 months. It’s
worth repeating – 19 MONTHS. At every press conference, he’d be asked
the inevitable question about how he felt about losing, to which he’d
reply that his game was getting better so he was happy. The journalists
were writing about the here and now…he was seeing and feeling his swing
getting better at every event he played in.
So you’ve the world number 1 saying his swing isn’t good enough (when
will it ever be –does it remind you of Jonny and his kicking regime?)
and he and his coach do what it takes to make sure he still win in the
future. Now try to think how many hours were spent breaking down a
skill and performance routine learnt and engrained over many years and
over-writing that with the new, improved swing? It’s not going to be a
quick-fix solution here, have some patience folks.
Winning tournaments (or kicking every goal) isn’t necessarily the
be-all-and-end-all. These players may be seeing a slow improvement in
their technique – maybe the kicking will continue to be a little awry in
the short-term, but when the new technique is “bedded in” we’ll see the
results of the hard work over time. As was alluded to another thread,
Dave Walder once had a radar that was more miss than hit – he’s not done
that badly since he got it fixed now, has he?
*So put yourself in the position of any one of our kickers – you’re
using a technique that may not be comfortable, familiar or even complete
(you might have just had the ball thrown to you without any recent
practice) – and you have 13,500 pairs of eyes on you (minus Lee
Dickson), and the gravitas of the match situation (get us on the board,
extend a lead, close a gap, bonus point territory) and you have a kicker
without that much confidence as maybe he doesn’t trust himself
completely. Now, how wide do those posts look to him? We haven’t even
addressed the mental approach to kicking as yet…Is it realistic to
expect EVERY kick to go over? (No doubt some will say that sitters have
been missed, and I accept that).
Put yourself in that position of trying to hide your personal
disappointment in a VERY public place, and keep coming back for
more…these boys have some serious “cojones” so please don’t ever doubt
that they’re hurting (much more than we do and know) – they’re
professional not just in the sense they get paid for playing – they’re
working hard to sort all this out.
News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: ComeOnYouSaints.com (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 00:08
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Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Jon in Wherever (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 04:15
Brilliant article!
Does it make perfect sense? Yes.
Will people still complain at the bad percentages of our kickers? Sadly, yes.
Does it make perfect sense? Yes.
Will people still complain at the bad percentages of our kickers? Sadly, yes.
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Howlin (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 07:36
As I said on the thread one of the most sensible and thought provoking responses to our current "crisis". If only media pundits, particularly those of the rotund variety, could advise us in an impartial and educated manner. 
Saint til I die
Saint til I die
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Christa aka SaintCS (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 09:25
What an excellent article. Hopefully all those making sweeping statements about our kickers will learn and digest that there is more to being a professional athlete than meets the eye. I have said it before and will say it again to be a professional rugby player is a way of life, very disciplined and a lot of hard work. I admire all our boys for their skills and physical fitness which only comes with total dedication. Perfection is something we all aspire to but is rarely reached, if ever, but our boys come very close to it.
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: St.Rich Joe, Niamh and Sam's Dad (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 10:20
Thanks GP that's a great article.
No alcohol for January. I'm a dryathlete in aid of cancer research.
Dryathlon
No alcohol for January. I'm a dryathlete in aid of cancer research.
Dryathlon
They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Opinion8ed (IP Logged)
Date: 09/10/2010 13:37
I personally dont believe any of our kickers are 'unable' to kick. They proabably slot 95% over in training. They wouldnt even be considered as a first choice kicker if they didnt.
It's very clear the problem is inability to cope with the pressure. And, of course, the pressure grows each poor game, each missed kick AND every time it's mentioned by a commentator, journalist, opponent, or message board contributor.
And yes it does spread like a virus and if a kicker thinks that nobody else in the team is available to take over, it puts even more pressure on them. At the moment the pressure on our kickers because of the attention it is getting has become immense. Each kick is like one to win a world cup final.
How is it overcome? Lots of pratice to be able to replicate the action even when the brain is in meltdown can help; but it also needs some work on the mental aspects. If Grays cant do this I hope that the club is thinking about some sports psychology help here and also what the mangement can do to reinstil confidence and belief.
They are probably trying hard already but one thing you must do (IMHO) is give a struggling kicker time. If the problem is kicking under pressure, they need to practice that too. And that means not to keep changing the kicker after they have missed 2 or 3 or even 4 kicks in a agme. Let them play through the pressure and learn to cope with it. Learn that it gets even tougher when they have missed a few. If they can overcome that, it is even more confidence building. Most will eventually come out the other end. Like a golfer with the YIPS they will eventually overcome it. For those that dont, well then they need to develop into special players that can contribute enough to a team without kicking and/or let the team find someone else to be their kicker - which by the way it does not say in the rules has to be a No. 10.
Give them time. Kep the faith. Let them keep kicking and at least one of them will come through.
It's very clear the problem is inability to cope with the pressure. And, of course, the pressure grows each poor game, each missed kick AND every time it's mentioned by a commentator, journalist, opponent, or message board contributor.
And yes it does spread like a virus and if a kicker thinks that nobody else in the team is available to take over, it puts even more pressure on them. At the moment the pressure on our kickers because of the attention it is getting has become immense. Each kick is like one to win a world cup final.
How is it overcome? Lots of pratice to be able to replicate the action even when the brain is in meltdown can help; but it also needs some work on the mental aspects. If Grays cant do this I hope that the club is thinking about some sports psychology help here and also what the mangement can do to reinstil confidence and belief.
They are probably trying hard already but one thing you must do (IMHO) is give a struggling kicker time. If the problem is kicking under pressure, they need to practice that too. And that means not to keep changing the kicker after they have missed 2 or 3 or even 4 kicks in a agme. Let them play through the pressure and learn to cope with it. Learn that it gets even tougher when they have missed a few. If they can overcome that, it is even more confidence building. Most will eventually come out the other end. Like a golfer with the YIPS they will eventually overcome it. For those that dont, well then they need to develop into special players that can contribute enough to a team without kicking and/or let the team find someone else to be their kicker - which by the way it does not say in the rules has to be a No. 10.
Give them time. Kep the faith. Let them keep kicking and at least one of them will come through.
Re: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: St Crispin (IP Logged)
Date: 09/10/2010 13:50
I think your right. As annoying as it is to be missing so many kicks, what other options do we have, apart from the kneejerk acquisition of a world class kicker (something which I'm fairly certain will not happen). So the only option is to use everything at the clubs disposal to make the kickers we do have perform better. I'm sure it will happen and I'm fairly certain that the coaches (and players) are doing everything they can. In Jim (and all others) we trust ;-)
Re: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Robby Richmond (IP Logged)
Date: 09/10/2010 14:12
just as an aside, stuart barnes missed plenty of sitters and noone at the rec would dare question his skills...
an infamous day in the cup quarterfinals at waterloo saw everyone from jerry guscott to tony swift given a crack at the sticks...
yes, bath lost...
an infamous day in the cup quarterfinals at waterloo saw everyone from jerry guscott to tony swift given a crack at the sticks...
yes, bath lost...
Re: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: St Owen (IP Logged)
Date: 09/10/2010 14:47
Of course they're not bad kickers, but are they good enough?
You can't always get what you want, But if you try sometimes well you might find, You get what you need.
Richards/Jagger
You can't always get what you want, But if you try sometimes well you might find, You get what you need.
Richards/Jagger
Re: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Ginger Prince in Stockholm (IP Logged)
Date: 09/10/2010 15:03
Depends how you term "good enough" Owen...
Ginger - The Colour of Sexual Rejection
Ginger - The Colour of Sexual Rejection
Re: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: stokerC (IP Logged)
Date: 09/10/2010 16:31
I'm getting a bit fed up with Barnes and his useless dull sidekick Morris smirking at any chance they get to down Saints. Sky would be better off ditching those two and put in Greenwood and Ryan who are both very much more up with the modern game.
Re: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Phil. (IP Logged)
Date: 09/10/2010 17:40
You know, I read "dull sidekick" as something totally different at first glance... 
"It's not the despair, Saints, I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand."
"It's not the despair, Saints, I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand."
Re: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: ajack (IP Logged)
Date: 09/10/2010 17:52
I think Saints need to take a serious look at the kicking coach/ coaches and the techniques they use. On the face of it we have two good kickers and one reasonable one, however on the pitch we have three unreliable kickers.
Everyone will miss the odd kick they should get or have a bad day at the office but the problem seems to go deeper than that.
Who was the last player to join Saints and their goal kicking improved from the coaching they received?
Everyone will miss the odd kick they should get or have a bad day at the office but the problem seems to go deeper than that.
Who was the last player to join Saints and their goal kicking improved from the coaching they received?
Re: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: ChrisG (IP Logged)
Date: 09/10/2010 18:29
Carry on like this and we'll all be joining Dicko in looking away. Add some kicking advice from Dusty hare to his list of tasks as to what he did in his day i.e. plonk the ball down, boot it!
Re: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: 8tiggi8 (IP Logged)
Date: 09/10/2010 18:56
i think your right, there all good they just have there ups and downs. everyone at half time was like take geraghty off because of the kick ,but he played well with ball in hand and kicked to the corner weel. he also couldnt kick last week because he had stiff legs, so he hadnt kicked in a while. loved mylers kick... side of the post...crossbar...lines man...over!
Re: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: St Marlowe (IP Logged)
Date: 09/10/2010 19:05
Quote:They're very, very naughty boys!They're not bad kickers
David L
What if there were no hypothetical questions?
- Live wrong and preposterously
Re: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Saint Dom in Hanoi (IP Logged)
Date: 09/10/2010 21:48
Yips, in golf, are a putting affliction.
The kicking collapse that has infested Franklin's Gardens all season is purely psychological, and more akin to driving woes in golf. When you start slicing or (much worse) hooking the ball - there is usually no hope in that round of golf.
So I agree that we should change the kicker - mid-game, if necessary - when things go pear-shaped: that's the time to pick someone else - and that's the best way to help players deal with pressure...
Kick your goals or lose your place - and your contract.
The kicking collapse that has infested Franklin's Gardens all season is purely psychological, and more akin to driving woes in golf. When you start slicing or (much worse) hooking the ball - there is usually no hope in that round of golf.
So I agree that we should change the kicker - mid-game, if necessary - when things go pear-shaped: that's the time to pick someone else - and that's the best way to help players deal with pressure...
Kick your goals or lose your place - and your contract.
Re: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: DorsetSaint (IP Logged)
Date: 09/10/2010 21:51
Often (in France in particular) the home fans make plenty of noise when their own kicker is kicking (encouraging hand clapping, that sort of thing). Someone on another thread rightly pointed out that silence doesn't bother O'Gara at Munster which is a fair point, but as a kicker myself i can imagine which i'd prefer if I were playing in front of a large expectant home crowd in a high pressure game. Desperately scraping the barrel I know, but there really is no obvious answer!
We can keep the silence for away kickers though.
We can keep the silence for away kickers though.
Re: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Saintly Pursuit (IP Logged)
Date: 09/10/2010 22:09
Well said Ginger Prince 
Re: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Howlin (IP Logged)
Date: 09/10/2010 23:02
Thank you Opiniated and GP for two of the most sensible and thought provoking posts on this issue.
Saint til I die
Saint til I die
Re: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Ha! Wasn't Me (IP Logged)
Date: 09/10/2010 23:37
R.E. the quiet, it's been ages - to my ears anyway - since EVERYBODY shut up (and there wasn't a tv blaring from a corporate box). It could be where I'm sat, but I was getting it at the end of last season too and I had a different seat then.
So, hey, I'm Dylan Hartley and I'm confrontational.
My Flickr and Picasa.
So, hey, I'm Dylan Hartley and I'm confrontational.
My Flickr and Picasa.
Re: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Robby Richmond (IP Logged)
Date: 09/10/2010 23:54
can i nominate ginge for that post being turned into an article?
Re: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Ginger Prince in Stockholm (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 10:00
That's very kind of you Robby, thanks.
And thank you to the editors, too, for your swift work.
Ginger - The Colour of Sexual Rejection
And thank you to the editors, too, for your swift work.
Ginger - The Colour of Sexual Rejection
Re: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Johnno2 (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 10:27
Agree with this - we should be expecting a world class kicking coach to have an impact on how the kickers cope under pressure.
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: St Owen (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 10:34
Both Bruces' and Myler's kicking styles have changed significantly over the seasons. Is it wise to make such wholesale changes to a kickers style when it can affect there performance to such a degree?
You can't always get what you want, But if you try sometimes well you might find, You get what you need.
Richards/Jagger
You can't always get what you want, But if you try sometimes well you might find, You get what you need.
Richards/Jagger
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Toulousian Firefighter (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 11:18
I'm pretty sure Shane changed his style mid-way through last season and i think it's changed this season too. He seems to have a run and swipe at it at times.
Can someone explain to me the positioning of the ball? When I've kicked before, I'd try different placings but they'd usually involve tilting it slightly towards me or to the post. I saw that one of Shane's on Friday was tilted heavily towards the Church's stand. These guys are the experts but I can't help but think that, if his foot doesn't strike 100% of the sweet spot, the power going through the ball is going to take the ball off the tee in a very unpredictable manner. But we haven't seen that happen (3 times) so far this season, have we?
Can someone explain to me the positioning of the ball? When I've kicked before, I'd try different placings but they'd usually involve tilting it slightly towards me or to the post. I saw that one of Shane's on Friday was tilted heavily towards the Church's stand. These guys are the experts but I can't help but think that, if his foot doesn't strike 100% of the sweet spot, the power going through the ball is going to take the ball off the tee in a very unpredictable manner. But we haven't seen that happen (3 times) so far this season, have we?
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: OldPete (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 11:56
thanks GP - a very sensible piece indeed.
I have never kicked a ball at the posts ( and i wonder how many of the armchair critics have ) - I wouldnt know where to start - so i cant imagine what it must be like to have to do this with 13,000 expectant fans watching and judging ones efforts.
I have never kicked a ball at the posts ( and i wonder how many of the armchair critics have ) - I wouldnt know where to start - so i cant imagine what it must be like to have to do this with 13,000 expectant fans watching and judging ones efforts.
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Ginger Prince in Stockholm (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 13:39
To answer a few questions raised,
Johnno2 – The only “real” world class kicking coach is Dr Dave Alred, who worked with the England team up to (and maybe just beyond) the 2003 RWC. His doctorate was earned in the analysis of the kicking action (and comparison to golf swing) – the action being an inverted “J” (the backswing of the leg by contracting hamstring muscles being the loop, the downswing, contact and follow-through being the “stem”).
A lot of what the current kicking coaches, Callard (at England level) for example, are using his work as theirs – after all, Dave Alred has worked with a lot of high quality players in his career (Grayse being and student (97 Lions), and of course, Jonny as his protégé – when his father paid for the coaching during Jonnys’ schooldays).
Alred had time to work his with players to help refine – maybe what’s happening here is that we don’t have time during the season (the kickers are a work in progress – and this is a long process). I think that’s why we are quick to judge without any thought of what is actually going on terms of where the players are along the refinement process, and mentally – not trusting yourself when you know your kicking style is not the finished article – what do you do? Come back to what you know, i.e. kick like you did before…
If you want to address the kicking under pressure, you’d be combining the kicking coaching with a sport psychologist. The mental approach to kicking could be addressed in another “Ginger seminar”…
St Owen - you're right about Bruza changing his kicking style, but I believe that was a necessity (remember the clean-out knee surgery he had done not that long ago?). Sometimes the change in style is due to injuries inhibiting movement, other times the exact opposite - Jonny had a problem with his groin after he re-modelled his kicking action, that turned out to be a previously unused (and therefore under-strength) muscle being involved in the new kicking action. The incessant practice regime Jonny had made the groin worse - the price being side-lined again.
I'm not sure whether "wholesale" changes have been made. It's a tricky thing to balance, overloading the player with all the corrective measures at once, or drip feeding them in a logical sequence. There is a knock-on effect when one element is changed, as it disrupts the previously autonomous process.
Try to imagine the skill broken down into 4 component parts;
1 - approach; angle and distance from the ball
2 - balance; position of standing foot relative to the ball, head position, body alignment (standing leg and hip braced), leading arm and shoulder movement
3 - contact; the correct part of the foot hitting the sweet spot (of the sweet spot) on the ball
4 - follow through to the intended finish point
Change any one of those, and the whole process begins to "crumble". The approach dictates, the balance, which dictates the contact, and so on. So the attention to detail shown by Grayse has to be exact and minimise errors further along the kicking action – it sounds a little silly; you can’t tweak things too much as you have a desired outcome, but want to have that as often as possible, with minimal disruption.
TF – If I recall correctly, Geraghty changed his kicking style at the behest of the England coaching staff (Callard). This in itself could create a conflict of interest if Callard and Grayse have differing opinions on how best to help him. Whether it’s too much information, or just the wrong information, it’s counter-productive to what the aim of the coaching is.
There are some more obvious flaws in his action, but over time, can be refined. I prefer not to list them here as I don’t want to turn this thread into “this player can’t do that” or show any bias toward any player.
The placing of the ball at angle is to expose the sweet spot to the kicker. The sweet spot is about a third of the way up the ball. Striking through here, the balls then rolls over its axis. You’ll know you’re someway there when you kick as you achieve what looks like backspin on the ball. Kick too high, (centre of the ball) and the trajectory of the ball is flatter, and the flight path looks more “distressed”. The foot rising from the top of the loop (in the J) to the stem gives the ball its velocity and release angle.
When you think about it, even changing the tee, can have a detrimental effect – how many varieties are there at different heights, as well as those that “force” you to place the ball in a particular way due to their design?
It’s not so much the foot striking the sweet spot, more the 4 parts of the process synchronising and acting smoothly, one after the other. You can get away with not striking the sweet spot perfectly (some kicks do wobble over), and you’ll know a different sound when someone misses the sweet spot completely – the audible “thud” as opposed to the “pop”.
Ginger - The Colour of Sexual Rejection
Johnno2 – The only “real” world class kicking coach is Dr Dave Alred, who worked with the England team up to (and maybe just beyond) the 2003 RWC. His doctorate was earned in the analysis of the kicking action (and comparison to golf swing) – the action being an inverted “J” (the backswing of the leg by contracting hamstring muscles being the loop, the downswing, contact and follow-through being the “stem”).
A lot of what the current kicking coaches, Callard (at England level) for example, are using his work as theirs – after all, Dave Alred has worked with a lot of high quality players in his career (Grayse being and student (97 Lions), and of course, Jonny as his protégé – when his father paid for the coaching during Jonnys’ schooldays).
Alred had time to work his with players to help refine – maybe what’s happening here is that we don’t have time during the season (the kickers are a work in progress – and this is a long process). I think that’s why we are quick to judge without any thought of what is actually going on terms of where the players are along the refinement process, and mentally – not trusting yourself when you know your kicking style is not the finished article – what do you do? Come back to what you know, i.e. kick like you did before…
If you want to address the kicking under pressure, you’d be combining the kicking coaching with a sport psychologist. The mental approach to kicking could be addressed in another “Ginger seminar”…
St Owen - you're right about Bruza changing his kicking style, but I believe that was a necessity (remember the clean-out knee surgery he had done not that long ago?). Sometimes the change in style is due to injuries inhibiting movement, other times the exact opposite - Jonny had a problem with his groin after he re-modelled his kicking action, that turned out to be a previously unused (and therefore under-strength) muscle being involved in the new kicking action. The incessant practice regime Jonny had made the groin worse - the price being side-lined again.
I'm not sure whether "wholesale" changes have been made. It's a tricky thing to balance, overloading the player with all the corrective measures at once, or drip feeding them in a logical sequence. There is a knock-on effect when one element is changed, as it disrupts the previously autonomous process.
Try to imagine the skill broken down into 4 component parts;
1 - approach; angle and distance from the ball
2 - balance; position of standing foot relative to the ball, head position, body alignment (standing leg and hip braced), leading arm and shoulder movement
3 - contact; the correct part of the foot hitting the sweet spot (of the sweet spot) on the ball
4 - follow through to the intended finish point
Change any one of those, and the whole process begins to "crumble". The approach dictates, the balance, which dictates the contact, and so on. So the attention to detail shown by Grayse has to be exact and minimise errors further along the kicking action – it sounds a little silly; you can’t tweak things too much as you have a desired outcome, but want to have that as often as possible, with minimal disruption.
TF – If I recall correctly, Geraghty changed his kicking style at the behest of the England coaching staff (Callard). This in itself could create a conflict of interest if Callard and Grayse have differing opinions on how best to help him. Whether it’s too much information, or just the wrong information, it’s counter-productive to what the aim of the coaching is.
There are some more obvious flaws in his action, but over time, can be refined. I prefer not to list them here as I don’t want to turn this thread into “this player can’t do that” or show any bias toward any player.
The placing of the ball at angle is to expose the sweet spot to the kicker. The sweet spot is about a third of the way up the ball. Striking through here, the balls then rolls over its axis. You’ll know you’re someway there when you kick as you achieve what looks like backspin on the ball. Kick too high, (centre of the ball) and the trajectory of the ball is flatter, and the flight path looks more “distressed”. The foot rising from the top of the loop (in the J) to the stem gives the ball its velocity and release angle.
When you think about it, even changing the tee, can have a detrimental effect – how many varieties are there at different heights, as well as those that “force” you to place the ball in a particular way due to their design?
It’s not so much the foot striking the sweet spot, more the 4 parts of the process synchronising and acting smoothly, one after the other. You can get away with not striking the sweet spot perfectly (some kicks do wobble over), and you’ll know a different sound when someone misses the sweet spot completely – the audible “thud” as opposed to the “pop”.
Ginger - The Colour of Sexual Rejection
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: desbralass (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 15:52
GP,what an excellent and informative article.Thank you,I've learnt something about kicking.
And I do agree with OP regarding having never kicked a ball...I don't knock what I can't do myself.
Bridesmaids no more.
And I do agree with OP regarding having never kicked a ball...I don't knock what I can't do myself.
Bridesmaids no more.
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: desbralass (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 16:06
Robby...hubby asks...was Grayse playing for Waterloo that day?
Bridesmaids no more.
Bridesmaids no more.
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: ajack (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 17:05
A good article from GP, however the reference to Woods is inaccurate as he actually won three events in 1997 after his first master’s win following the first of his many swing changes.
Whilst I don’t doubt for one minute that you sometimes need to take a step back in order to eventually move forward, I am still not sure where the forward steps come in terms of the Saints kicking coaches.
I repeat the question who was the last player that improved (dramatically) as a kicker whilst being coached at Saints?
Whilst I don’t doubt for one minute that you sometimes need to take a step back in order to eventually move forward, I am still not sure where the forward steps come in terms of the Saints kicking coaches.
I repeat the question who was the last player that improved (dramatically) as a kicker whilst being coached at Saints?
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Robby Richmond (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 17:20
erm, matt dawson?
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Ginger Prince in Stockholm (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 17:23
Ajack, my apologies - I meant MAJOR tournament wins, not merely tour titles after the 97 masters.
The question I have to preface your is who have been the kicking coaches in recent years, if anyone?
I assume that Grayse is doing that job in his current role, but previously? Can't think who Solomons or Smith employed, and i wasn't connected to the club or town prior to 2001
Ginger - The Colour of Sexual Rejection
The question I have to preface your is who have been the kicking coaches in recent years, if anyone?
I assume that Grayse is doing that job in his current role, but previously? Can't think who Solomons or Smith employed, and i wasn't connected to the club or town prior to 2001
Ginger - The Colour of Sexual Rejection
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Robby Richmond (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 17:36
frank ponasi was the skills coach that was apparently to blame for pretty much everything when we went down....
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: ajack (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 18:39
Rob I would give you Daws as he joined as an 18? year old kid it is fair to say his kicking improved while at Saints.
However as he left in 2004? That is something like six years with no real improvement, not a great return is it?
However as he left in 2004? That is something like six years with no real improvement, not a great return is it?
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Robby Richmond (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 18:55
quite agree pal,
digger worked really hard on his field kicking, improved it to such a point he is now comfortably able to play full back.
We all loved sharky but in 100 appearances for the club how many times did you ever see him box kick?
dyl has worked really hard on his throwing, and is now top class,
we can pick holes in things all night, it all comes back to the phrase, there is no such thing as a complete player.
without wishing to sound derogitry and disrespectful in any way, bedford do not practice field kicking.
does that sound daft to anyone else? perhaps they dont have enough time in the training schedule?
thinking aloud on a forum, this wont end well...
digger worked really hard on his field kicking, improved it to such a point he is now comfortably able to play full back.
We all loved sharky but in 100 appearances for the club how many times did you ever see him box kick?
dyl has worked really hard on his throwing, and is now top class,
we can pick holes in things all night, it all comes back to the phrase, there is no such thing as a complete player.
without wishing to sound derogitry and disrespectful in any way, bedford do not practice field kicking.
does that sound daft to anyone else? perhaps they dont have enough time in the training schedule?
thinking aloud on a forum, this wont end well...
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Ben_D (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 22:46
I understand the mechanical concepts and the theories surrounding muscle memory, technique etc.
However there is an equally important element that hasn't been covered and that's the mental approach. Wilkinson under the tutelage of Alred dedicated just as much time to the mental aspects and visualisation of the kicking process as he did to the mechanics.
Citing golf is a good example as so much of the process is carried out between the ears. Teaching kicking psychology is probably the hardest aspect of the whole process and I remain to be convinced that the problem remains entirely mechanical for our boys - one in particular.
However there is an equally important element that hasn't been covered and that's the mental approach. Wilkinson under the tutelage of Alred dedicated just as much time to the mental aspects and visualisation of the kicking process as he did to the mechanics.
Citing golf is a good example as so much of the process is carried out between the ears. Teaching kicking psychology is probably the hardest aspect of the whole process and I remain to be convinced that the problem remains entirely mechanical for our boys - one in particular.
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: ballagher (IP Logged)
Date: 10/10/2010 23:17
Quote:ajack
I repeat the question who was the last player that improved (dramatically) as a kicker whilst being coached at Saints?
Is your question rhetorical Ajack and, if so, is that because it's screamingly obvious (not to me)? Or is the point you're making that noone can remember when it last happened? Or is it one of those trivia questions that's usually answered by Smurf (or, before Simon, Mark H) in no time at all?
If it's a genuine question that you want the answer to (and you're ruling out Matt Dawson; coached by Paul Grayson I add mischievously) I'd say Paul Grayson (but I can't believe that's what you want to be the answer).
Since Grayson was the mainstay (Hepher and Townsend in and out during that time); there's been Drahm, Reihana, Spencer, Myler and Geraghty.
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: DorsetSaint (IP Logged)
Date: 11/10/2010 00:14
The mechanical aspects described here are interesting and informative, but I agree with Ben_D in that I really think it's more a mental issue. Can we over-analyse the mechanics sometimes? I know it sounds ignorant and simplistic, but it's just kicking a ball over a bar - it's really not that difficult away from the pressures of the game/crowd/match situation. I know because I can do it, and if I can do it, it's not too difficult. It's a lot simpler than, say, mastering the complexities of a golf swing. The difference is i'm not paid to do it, and there's not 13,500 people watching me and many more on telly et etc. For all the great posts here, I still don't know how you get over that pressure aspect?
The only feeble suggestion I have is to switch the thought process regularly when things are not going well. If you missing then make the dominant thought something else during the kicking process.
For example, if you are thinking technique during the kick, switch to focussing on one of the uprights and drawing/fading it in from there and forget technique - just focus on that upright and let instincts take over regarding technique. Once I went through a spell of imagining a patch of grass where I wanted to land the ball beyond the posts and almost forgot about the posts completely. I also went through a spell of trying the clear the crossbar by only what was required and nothing more (ie just dinking it over in some cases). It sounds a recipe for diasaster but it's funny how it really seemed to help as it was a way of getting into the frame of mind of just mucking about on the training pitch rather than a game situation.
Whatever, the thoughts, I find there tends to be a dominant one during the act of kicking and changing this around from time to time when things start to go awry might help. Sometimes it might take the warm up before a game to figure what thought process feels comfortable and works for you on the day and it may well vary from game to game.
Just a rambling thinking out loud post - sorry!
The only feeble suggestion I have is to switch the thought process regularly when things are not going well. If you missing then make the dominant thought something else during the kicking process.
For example, if you are thinking technique during the kick, switch to focussing on one of the uprights and drawing/fading it in from there and forget technique - just focus on that upright and let instincts take over regarding technique. Once I went through a spell of imagining a patch of grass where I wanted to land the ball beyond the posts and almost forgot about the posts completely. I also went through a spell of trying the clear the crossbar by only what was required and nothing more (ie just dinking it over in some cases). It sounds a recipe for diasaster but it's funny how it really seemed to help as it was a way of getting into the frame of mind of just mucking about on the training pitch rather than a game situation.
Whatever, the thoughts, I find there tends to be a dominant one during the act of kicking and changing this around from time to time when things start to go awry might help. Sometimes it might take the warm up before a game to figure what thought process feels comfortable and works for you on the day and it may well vary from game to game.
Just a rambling thinking out loud post - sorry!
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: ChrisG (IP Logged)
Date: 11/10/2010 08:13
Perhaps we need to strip it all back, go back to basics and build from there, I sometimes think re kicking some of the exponents are getting blinding by science, told to try this and that technique from various different people (sometimes conflicting) to improve their stats but having them fall apart in the process. If everyone was mentally and physically the same there may been some hard and fast rules to thae art but they aren't and maybe people should be encouraged to develop what they are comfortable and happy with rather than striving for something that is clearly at times upsetting their natural kicking technique and in time other aspects of their game.
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: shizlebot (IP Logged)
Date: 11/10/2010 08:23
And for our part in the process I think we have to remember that these guys are probably more frustrated than we are that the ball is not regularly going through the posts.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010:10:11:08:24:45 by shizlebot.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 2010:10:11:08:24:45 by shizlebot.
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Sarge (IP Logged)
Date: 11/10/2010 22:48
Leaving aside all the very valid points made above, how much difference did the change to an Adidas ball make for the Heinekin Cup game? Bruce, Shane and one of the Castres kickers all missed some kicks off the tee that should have been relatively straghtforward.
It has been said in the past that the Mitre ball previously used for European games had a different sweet spot to the Gilbert ball used in the Premiership. Has Adidas taken over Mitre, or is it a completely new ball for this year?
It has been said in the past that the Mitre ball previously used for European games had a different sweet spot to the Gilbert ball used in the Premiership. Has Adidas taken over Mitre, or is it a completely new ball for this year?
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Saint Swill (IP Logged)
Date: 12/10/2010 00:35
There is a counter-argument to the constant refinement of technique.
In 1991, Ian Baker-Finch won the Open Championship at Royal Birkdale with final rounds of 64 and 66. It was a sudden and unheralded rise to fame, but Baker-Finch cemented his improvement by three good runner-up slots shortly after.
This should have been the launchpad to a glittering career, but in a quest to improve his swing, Baker-Finch employed a series of experts to refine his technique. Every expert added his two-pennyworth. Stand closer to the ball, grip the club a little higher, stand back from the ball, loosen your grip, faster on the follow-through, slower on the downswing, relax the shoulders, tighten the wrists - the advice came thick and fast, and in pursuit of the perfect swing Baker-Finch took it all on board.
The result? The steepest plummet in form ever witnessed in top-class golf.Within a couple of years his game totally fell apart. By 1995/1996, he was disqualified or missed the cut or walked out of the 29 PGA tournaments he played in.
He retired in 1997 after shooting 92 in the first round of the Open and walking away. When questioned about it much later, he said that he listened to too much advice and applied so many tweaks to his swing that in the end he lost his "muscle memory" - the point where the subconscious takes over and controls the action to the point where repetition is automatic. He was simply thinking too much about what he was doing.
I'm not arguing against altering technique, simply suggesting there may some risks inherent in too much coaching.
In 1991, Ian Baker-Finch won the Open Championship at Royal Birkdale with final rounds of 64 and 66. It was a sudden and unheralded rise to fame, but Baker-Finch cemented his improvement by three good runner-up slots shortly after.
This should have been the launchpad to a glittering career, but in a quest to improve his swing, Baker-Finch employed a series of experts to refine his technique. Every expert added his two-pennyworth. Stand closer to the ball, grip the club a little higher, stand back from the ball, loosen your grip, faster on the follow-through, slower on the downswing, relax the shoulders, tighten the wrists - the advice came thick and fast, and in pursuit of the perfect swing Baker-Finch took it all on board.
The result? The steepest plummet in form ever witnessed in top-class golf.Within a couple of years his game totally fell apart. By 1995/1996, he was disqualified or missed the cut or walked out of the 29 PGA tournaments he played in.
He retired in 1997 after shooting 92 in the first round of the Open and walking away. When questioned about it much later, he said that he listened to too much advice and applied so many tweaks to his swing that in the end he lost his "muscle memory" - the point where the subconscious takes over and controls the action to the point where repetition is automatic. He was simply thinking too much about what he was doing.
I'm not arguing against altering technique, simply suggesting there may some risks inherent in too much coaching.
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: AlanSaints (IP Logged)
Date: 12/10/2010 09:29
Lets take Munster - O'Gara is one of the worlds best kickers out of hand and to goal..did they win on Sunday...No. You don't have to have the worlds best kicker in your team to win the premiership and the Heineken cup. I thought Geraghty got us into really good positions on Friday and it was others in the team that made mistakes that followed. Apart from Carter (even he misses kicks) there is no other fly half that offers both the attacking flair and top class kicking. I am really worried that if Geraghty leaves the club after this season we will lose that momentum of going forward and attacking style rugby that got us to where we were last season. We all know what we were like before last season and I really don't want us to go backwards. We need to stick with Geraghty and accept the way he plays. I thought he looked like he was getting back to his old brilliant self on Friday night. Not sure what is going on with the forwards, they don't seem quite in tune. The ball was very slow coming from the breakdown and we all know how difficult it is to play behind a pack that are struggling. Hopefully Bruce has got over his mare. What I find very interesting is if Geraghty was Bruce on Friday night this messgaeboard would be full of negativity against Geraghty. If you want a topic to talk about, how about the srcum, the lineout???
Oh and has anyone found out if Nitro Warrior is a relation of Myler..or even Myler himself!! Now....there's a story!!
Oh and has anyone found out if Nitro Warrior is a relation of Myler..or even Myler himself!! Now....there's a story!!
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Clegthorpe (IP Logged)
Date: 12/10/2010 10:28
Quote:Sarge
It has been said in the past that the Mitre ball previously used for European games had a different sweet spot to the Gilbert ball used in the Premiership. Has Adidas taken over Mitre, or is it a completely new ball for this year?
It's a new ball for this competition. From what seems to be an Adidas press release on another site:
In addition, through positioning the valve in the seam and not in the middle of a panel, there is an enhanced sweet spot area ideal for kicking. With such an array of technical innovations, the adidas Tornado Respect is the perfect ball for the biggest club competition in world rugby.
I am not qualified to contribute to this discussion, but note the following kicking stats from Round 1:
Bath 40%
Blues 37.5%
Perpignan 57%
Sarries 40%
Leinster 55.6%
Tigers 57.1%
Saints 37.5%
Castres 33.3%
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: ClaireJ (IP Logged)
Date: 12/10/2010 21:00
One of Ian Baker-Finch's claims to fame is hitting the ball from the 1st tee on the Old Course across the 1st and 18th fairways straight through the open window of the Russacks Hotel's Breakfast Room.
That's a huge distance and one helluva hook...
No wonder he thought his coaches had got it so wrong.
ClaireJ
RedHatPhoto.com review of 2015 photos here...
Buy photos from RedHatPhoto
That's a huge distance and one helluva hook...
No wonder he thought his coaches had got it so wrong.
ClaireJ
RedHatPhoto.com review of 2015 photos here...
Buy photos from RedHatPhoto
Re: News: They're not bad kickers
Posted by: Howlin (IP Logged)
Date: 13/10/2010 17:23
Those are staggering stats Clegthorpe. AlanSaints , I agree wholeheartedly re Geraghty and the forwards against Castres. They were in a tough fight, about that, there should be no doubt.
There are many that appear to believe Saints are world beaters after a good performance and then think they are doomed to failure after a less than perfect performance (win or lose!) and often translate these thoughts to individual players. Then they get upset when you disagree with them and appear to believe their views are being censored in some way when you do.
Well good luck to them. I subscribe to neither opinion and think we have a very good, young squad and one of the best management teams around. I watch my rugby in hope not expectation and above all usually enjoy the experience whatever the result.
Saint til I die
There are many that appear to believe Saints are world beaters after a good performance and then think they are doomed to failure after a less than perfect performance (win or lose!) and often translate these thoughts to individual players. Then they get upset when you disagree with them and appear to believe their views are being censored in some way when you do.
Well good luck to them. I subscribe to neither opinion and think we have a very good, young squad and one of the best management teams around. I watch my rugby in hope not expectation and above all usually enjoy the experience whatever the result.
Saint til I die
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